PROTEÓ: ï  LJ4, €^t UO°°>ESTYLE C "Captions 9" "CG Times" 9 PS 1.2 STYLE E "Chapter 15" "CG Times" 15 PS 1.2 STYLE F "Affil 9I" "CG Times" 9 PS i 1.2 STYLE G "H2 13B" "CG Times" 13 PS b 1.2 STYLE H "H3 13B" "CG Times" 13 PS b 1.2 STYLE I "H4 11B" "CG Times" 11 PS b 1.2 STYLE J "H5 11B" "CG Times" 11 PS b 1.2 STYLE K "Code 12cpi" "Courier" 10 12 1.2 STYLE M "Courier 20cpi" "Courier" 6 20 1.2 STYLE N "Courier 10cpi" "Courier" 12 10 1 STYLE O "Courier 12cpi" "Courier" 10 12 1.2 STYLE P "Line Printer" "Line Printer" 8.5 16.67 1.2 STYLE Q "Quotations 10" "CG Times" 10 PS 1.2 STYLE R "Refces 9" "CG Times" 9 PS 1.2 STYLE S "CG Times 8" "CG Times" 8 PS 1.2 STYLE T "Text 12" "CG Times" 12 PS 1.2 STYLE U "Univers 10" "Univers" 10 PS 1.2 STYLE V "Univers 8" "Univers" 8 PS 1.2 STYLE W "CG Times 15B" "CG Times" 15 PS b 1.2 ä>-------------------------C-------------------------R >BL off >WO on >RJ off >IP off >HY 100 >HY off >TL >LS 1 >SQ on >DQ on >HE off >FO1 % >FO on >--!--!--!--!---------------------------------------R NOTES FOR ZOOM DISCUSSION 12 February 2021 This is a record of the second Reith Lecture Zoom Discussion, held on the 12th ŠFrbruary 2021. Eight people took part. The text below is more-or-less a Šshortened transcript of what took place, but sometimes sentences summarised Šinto phrases or single words. "..." indicates material I did not manage to transcribe. About half way through, I began adding "***" to points I felt were important. I have gone through and labelled points with "[z2nn]" and added them to Š"topics.html". Draft Agenda: # Apologies for long gap # Lecture 4, on climate crisis and the economy. # christianthinking.space holds the files. # The dasgupta review PEOPLE TAKING PART: # NO: M Carney avoided hardcore and piety issues : we owe something we Šcan never repay, and also to forefathers ideas that we stand upon. # NO: Bz. Lutheran faith. Passion: words, philosophy, theology, American ŠWest. Dallas # RB: Sweden. Hearing lectures. World and climate crisis. # CA: Teach economics. Like economics. Trying to be in touch with what is Šhappening. Seeing how we can apply what we are learning. But politics. Still Šbridge the gap # JC:. Find a complementary negative from German idealism. Dooyeweerd. ŠAndrew. Learn. # RG: Fareham, Portsmouth. Christian thinking. TFN. Teach Univ Winchester. ŠStats. Teach Value studies. Short time researching on financial stability. As ŠChristian keen to explore ways things make value # NB:. Computer science. Generically interested in these discussions. ŠProfessional interests: AI and CrSci, how can we use automation to help people Šflourish. Jobs. A form of meaning and service to others. # WB. Via RG. Wales. Arabist. Medic. Psychiatrist. Innovaton role in NHS. ŠEcunemism and environmentalism. How relevant in NHS, multisectoral. Christian Šin Anglo-catholic originally evangelical. DISCUSSION: # Lecture 4. Climate Change and the Economy. # NB: Externalities [z201]. Carbon not in bottom line. Economic levers we Šmust pull but politics gets in the way. Paris treaty unworkable. USA and China Šand India on board. # NO: netzero and 2050 premature and overdrawn [z202]. In our economics Šwe should be concerned [z203]. but not stampede commerce. dangerous to set Šan economy to drive co2 emissions, # AB: how bring that concern in? [z203] # NO: government should have tax policies. e.g. USA EnvProtAgency. Better Šuse of our treasures. Not world consensus. Moral and Mindset problem. [z204] # JC: market imperfections. Our market systems based on measurable Šefficiencies [z205]. We are critiquing e,g. how do we expand our hearts, so that Šexternalties come in [z206]. # JC: I like CA's list of Christian virtues [z207]. Placing them below the Šimportance of the other. Truly stepping out: what impacts our econ the most. ŠSet up economy in extenalities. [z208] # NO: right: disconnect. MC avoided the issue of the financialisation of all Š[z209]. In old world, bank would lend money to build a factory, but the problem Štoday, a great focus is pure trading and market [z210]. Millions dollars of Šcompensaton for producing no value. Marianna M book. # NO: Christian view needs to be tied to real human activity. (how achievable?) ŠIf we bring in the xn values. [z211] # NB: A thread through whole conversation is one of scale [x212]. 100k$ to Šredo a line, v. financiers millions. same re climate change etc.: couple of Šgigatons of CO2 are mixed with others, and consequences removed from my act, Šwhereas if I spill uranium on your ground then it is a localised event and you can Šsee who is responsible. Challenge: God built us to love our neighbour - including Šdiffuse 'other' on other side of world. # RG: Reflections about economc in general: The economy has become a tool Šfor consequentialist ethics [z213]. Is it fair to say that the economy has been Šbrought in as the easiest thing to measure [z214] (see also z894 in <õa href= Š"z8.html"õ>8th discussion. Easiest way to judge whether a government is Šdoing right thing. Conseuquentialism ok but limited: Utilitairians (JS Mill), but Šcannot measure across all people [z215]. Although money is an amazingly Štransparent measure [z216], we don't know what it's optimizing and measuring Š[z217]. # NO: ability to measure things is a problem. [z218] # JC: I get money for universities. Story: Met with someone: she said "The Šonly thing that matters is an academic degree so they can get best economic Šreturn for their family" [z219]. What can I do to accrue the freedom to do that. ŠCurrency empowers that [z220]. But we trying to figure out: what else should Šwe pursue? [z221] CA:'s things [list of Christian values]. What ... # RGorJC: The Dasgupta review is part of this trend. "Lets bring as much as Šwe can into this currency". [z222] # But what happens when we get the next financial shift. It does not prevent Šthe last turtle going extinct [z223]. AB: Why? RG: Because of values [z224]. As a Christian [z225]. Philosopher Frankina. ŠValue, earliest meaning of 'value' is worth in general sense. Then expanded to Šinclude beauty etc. Then grace, love. Then subjectivised, to plural, Values. ŠPeople's values. Justice, efficiency., etc. Econ value or the value of money Šclose to efficiency. But biodiversity is part of some other kind of goodness. ŠMaybe diversity itself is a value. [z226] # AB: An explanation of value and values. Dooyeweerd aspects. I see each Šaspect as offering the possibility of a different kind of Good, to enable the ŠCreation to work well in harmony. Each aspectual Good is a true value. People's Švalues are the collection of aspects they deem important. [z227] # JC: Importance is exchange between two people who hold different values Š[z228]. How to even articulate differences in values [z229]. And go to some Škind of shalom [z230]. There is a line there that's not quite clear yet [z231]. Š*** # NB: We set up money as negotiating these. Either use money to represent Šthis. Or else not money, but assert our values. [z232] # RG: Yes. But dasgupta review just same again. # RG: Also there is the idea of repugnant markets [z233]. Life insurance is not Šthe actual value of the person [z234]. # RG: I'm trying to climb up the gradient [of working this out?]. # NO: Šsomething I'm working on. to create a differnt type of financial reports. [z235] # NO: ... with technology, we have come to: my disjcipline in finance not yet Šinto the 21st century. we still measure in terms of costs. We should be Šproducing a public financial statement that ... should be monetized. Examples Šout there. We need a new standard of measurement. ... until then we still get a Šutilitarian cost side of things. [z236] # NO: happy to help people on. MC talked about how we undervalue personal Šcaregivers. We don't have a way of measuring that. [z237] # CA: how accountants and economists look at things is different. Accountants Šlook at what wage paid; economists, what wage should be paid. [z238] *** # NO: Helpful. # NO: But still a dynamic missing if we don't measure value: e.g. sister taking Štime off work to take father to hospital, that's an economic loss. But when Šhealth system relieves her of that need, things better. we don't measure that. Š[z239] [*** Important topic: the role of measurement] [z240] # CA: we have done some things on that line. e.g. CSR of companies. Pushing Šfirms to take some acton when it comes to govennance, environment, etc. Also ŠNGOs that are actively naming and shaming companies. Ethical trade [z241] [*** Is that a way of achieving good without measurement; I remember RG Šsuggested jural legislation and control as an alternative to measuring: z123] --- Will send link. # CA: how to put a value on numbers. [z242] # CA: Survey: EuropeanSocialSurvey.org. Look at values from country and Švalues perspective. [z243] # CA: Important to be humble and not draw attention. etc. ... [----- began recording about here -----] ... How can I map this to the values we were talking aaout. Christian values. Š[z243] # CA: Some negative, not positive. [z244] ... [AB interrupted there because WB had to leave] # WB: Integrated Reporting Network. WHO close to it. Close to what NO: was Šsaying. Relevant? [z245] # JC: thank you for your comment. 100,000 days saving. Keeping patients Šlonger. How value that? How the saved time to be used? *** would like to Šthink about this. [z246] # NO: about meeting again. "Fortnight"? # NO: thank everyone. getting a lot of info. [z247] # CA: continued ... positve and negative. Some positive things mentioned Šearlier. -ve: e.g. important to seek fun and things that give plearure: Is that -ve? Š[z244] # RG: Not in itself; it's priorities. [z248] # CA: negative: easy to do the maths + - . Looking at the variables (euro Šsocial values) [...listed...]. So they have quite a lot of things going on in here. ŠWould help us greatly in the numbering. [z249] # RG: But having numbers for each of those things: great idea. The problem Šcomes if you add them up. [z250] # CA: what happened was: to get the excel file, to send to everyone. Could Šnot send the excel file. # CA: suggest: let's have a look at this. *** [z251] # [good idea: ] # RB: How they do it: our UK National Children's Society brings out report: Šchildren in UK least happy. Not measuring money. [x252] # NB: could address Šchildhood happiness index. # NB: But not meet richard's concern. Dooyeweerdian simultaneious realizaton Šof norms. could assign weights of importance to various issues, e.g. climate Š0.37, family 0.62, etc. but that's not good. [z253] # NO: not good meaningful if we don't have freedom to ... Sometimes we have Što let a market operate. Better than totalitarian, at least [z254] # AB: sometimes measure sometimes not. [z255] # NB: agreed. # CA: measurement not the absolute: it is one tool to help us come to a Šconclusion *** [z256] # NB: perhaps the tension that RG and I are expressing is that tools can be Šelevate to idols. [z257] e.g index of child happiness can be overcome # RG: if we set up a target, people find ways to play to targets. [z258] # AB: Human heart whether we use targets and when we don't. selfish and Šidolatrously. *** [z259] # JC: Dominion: not control but, shift thinking of dominion as enrichment. ¢ *** ŠSo we can hinge around. Not 'what can I fontrol' but 'what can I enrich?' Š[z260] **** Help us look past ecnomics as purchasing power to ... GDP enrichment. [z261] # NO: really like that. Think about concept of dominion viewed as enrichment Šr.t. dominion as control. *** [z261] # NO: back to what Andrew said: issue of the COMMON GOOD. Maybe what Šwe need to resolve. r.t. what is the target. Simone: If you build an aqueduct to Šbring water to everyone in city that's a comlon good; if you build it just to your Šown garden, that's not a common good. [selfishness**] If we ... [z262] # NO: Maybe Dooyeweerdian aspects might play into that. Matrix in different Šelements. [z263] # RG: common good a useful term. Catholic tradition. links with Common ŠGrace: [z264] # RG: There is a surprising among consensus about common good. e.g. CA: Šmentioned seeking fun and happiness: a common good. Justice is a common Šgood: common agreement about it. [z265] # AB: these are the fundamnetal norms of aspects [z266] # CA: what have we established so far: » externalities. e.g. tax obesity stuff » using taxes to change that into sub... # CA: Ethical Trading Initiative. Came out in 1980 im UK: we can do Šinternational trade but not employ children in supply chain. But fast fashion. Š[z267]. # CA: Helping environment and people, We have ESG, but what about Šenforcement. A gap. CDO not going to work because government ... moral Šhazard. They took the gamble: if we win we make lot of money, if we lose, the Šgovernment will bail us out. So if we can find a key which is enforcement: make Šsure people following rules and regulations. *** [z268] # AB: Even with law and enforcement it does not make people good. [z269] # NO: are you talking about international scale? # CA: yes. trade wars. WTO Šshould be in charge, and say who can do what. There is no policing. Who is Šfollowing it? [z270] # CA: How can presidents walk out of Kyoto, Paris agreements? [z271] # [AB: fundamental limitation of juridical aspect?] [z272] # CA: enforcement: hope. The new WTO director, Nigerian. Someone who is Šnot from the West. [z273] # NO: Would be admirable if there was a UN that really worked. But I don't Šknow that that is ever on the cards. [z274] # NO: Augustine: City of God and City of Rome. City of Rome never going to Šbe morally perfect. will never have the righteous qualities because corrupt. Is Šthere an answer? [z275] # AB: Daniels vision: Jesus' kingdom is different and crumbles empire. [z276] # NO: strong man wins. British ruled the seas. But that didn't last. [z277] 17 June 2021: A few corrections made.